Curse

Myth Osis · Jul 23, 2005, 03:54 AM // 03:54

No need for your defensive posts Mariena Im sure that post from gail wasnt aimed at you specificly... *winks* yet more of a general statment to the comunity..

"Chill out people!"

Am I the only one loving the almost weekly updates. Better that than to wait 6 months for a 200 meg download ...... no??

Double post content:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Weezer_Blue

We would theororize conspiracies if A.Net stopped being so vague.

I dont believe the community should HAVE to be informed... I for one am glad that they dont list every flaw they fixed on thier website. We should just be thankful that they ARE fixing them..

shouldnt we?

Drakron · Jul 23, 2005, 04:10 AM // 04:10

Well considering the streaming technology I rather know exactly what was done that some vague statement about doing something.

After all we seen the trader "update" that was about a simple GUI change looking like something else besides the GUI being altered.

It also goes down to this, I played for a license to use software and so I like to be reported of changes to that software.

Warskull · Jul 23, 2005, 04:17 AM // 04:17

You don't want to know every little detail. Pretty much all game companies do it the same way, outline the changes that will be apparently to the player. However sum up the bugs and exploits in a few vague groups. There are reasons for this, remember an exploit or bug can require a lengthy series of events to occur or a very specific hardware set-up to trigger. The only time I recall seeing specific bug fixed outlined is when they are truely massive (like the Enemy Territory/Nvidia Driver issue that occured.) Best to sum up the important stuff.

Ultimate_Gaara · Jul 23, 2005, 04:18 AM // 04:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Myth Osis

Am I the only one loving the almost weekly updates. Better that than to wait 6 months for a 200 meg download ...... no??

i dont really care when we get updates, i feel Anet should take as long as they need (feel free to call me a suck up), but everytime i see an update my world lights up

Mariena Feladon · Jul 23, 2005, 04:32 AM // 04:32

Quote:

Myth Osis

Am I the only one loving the almost weekly updates. Better that than to wait 6 months for a 200 meg download ...... no??

I'm up for both, really. Guess I'm used to it. The good, and probably best, thing about the weekly updates is that they're VERY quick to address critical issues and other major problems (such as the botter problem in Seeker's Passage). The bad thing about it, is I guess, the expectation. You're getting used to the weekly updates, and when they're not updating weekly.. ooh. Angry mobs.

The updates are small, fast and 56k-friendly.

(Bad generalisation, I know not *all* of you are like that

).

The good thing about a huge patch is that it will come as a surprise, pretty much. In a moment's notice you can see a drastic change in the game. New content such as new items, monsters and areas are always a welcome surprise. Though I guess not everyone will like a drastic change such as a 230mb patch; it may have become too different for them and they'll have to get used to it again, and the size of the patch. Ouch. 230mb for a 56k'er? That's gonna take a night.

I'm not complaining, just stating my opinion that I like both options. But the current system is perfect, and the streaming patches are a lot better than those installer packages.

Sekkira · Jul 23, 2005, 05:57 AM // 05:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaile Gray

We post honestly about updates, but details are not provided for a wealth of reasons. It would be super if, instead of our seeing the glass has half empty, we all saw it as half full. This is the first company I know of that is so studious about trying to outline every area in which updates or patches are made, and to call out the specifics of what is being altered. I've seen games that have been out a year that don't have a single "patch note" page.

The problem is, the notes are so vague and leaves us wanting more. I'm not complaining about the updates, fixes in exploits, etc. But if you're going to put notes, at least be informative (not that you do personally). I don't see this as a glass half empty because it hasn't been drunk yet, I see it as less then half full because noone's bothered finishing off pouring it out.

I really would prefer no notes to something so vague as "fixed exploit". Whoopdedoo. That really is a waste of a patch note page. Something like "Closed armour exploit which allowed runes to be stacked and multiple on one piece." would be really nice (not that that is the case as I have no idea about any sort of armour exploit and if that is the case, it was a fluke guessing it).

I don't, We don't expect a full explaination of what it does, how to go about doing it (although it'd be nice, being a curious being that I am and have to know everything about everything, just for the sake of it) as that leads to more experimentation and could probably be worked around to re exploit such a thing (which on second thoughts might not be so bad if it's posted on the main page so people can find the exploits then report them, albiet a lot will use them to their advantage which is a downside). But we really would prefer at least something that tells us what's going on.

Gaile Gray · Jul 23, 2005, 06:00 AM // 06:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kali Ma

And Gaile, I sincerely apologize if any of my responses to your posts have caused you any upset. I don't know if they have, but if so that was never my intention. Your participation here has always been deeply appreciated by me, as has your patience and good humour. Maybe we should all express that to you more often, as I know many others feel the same that I do. And you're right... I'll do my best to maintain the "glass half full" mentality, and try to take things said around here with a grain of salt more often. I just really love the PvE aspect of this game, you know?

You, cause upset? You're extremely well-spoken and consistently courteous, and your love of the game is very evident -- no worries! (And thanks for the kindness of your concern.)

The truth is, there just aren't enough hours in the day for us to attend to the things that we want to attend to, and grow the game in the direction that we want to see it grow. There is so much that we want to bring you -- through the Summer Update, through Observer Mode, through the tournament, through future chapters. And there are things we know need fixing, or improving, in the here and now, too. We're sort of in that "making a list and checking it twice" situation, and working as quickly as we can to attend to the growth and the improvement in a sort of lateral pattern. Everyone should know there's no indifference to input, and a definite appreciation for those who make their contributions, particularly those whose input is clearly offered out of love of the game. We can definitely take the heated discussion. The worst possible thing would be no discussion at all.

Sometimes, there's a lot of ruckus about something so minor you have to scratch your head. Sometimes, there's only a small voice saying "Hey, there's this problem..." and it genuinely deserves much more of a view than the "topic du jour" that doesn't amount to a hill of beans in the overall picture. The essential thing is that we do hear from you -- comments, concerns, suggestions, input, reports... So keep 'em coming, and we'll share what we can, either in response or through improvements to the game, to which you can rightfully point and say "See that update? I helped with that."

Quote:

Originally Posted by Myth Osis

No need for your defensive posts Mariena Im sure that post from gail wasnt aimed at you specificly... *winks* yet more of a general statment to the comunity.. "Chill out people!"

Oh, you're so right! Nothing directed at anyone, really, just a little tease.

Quote:

Am I the only one loving the almost weekly updates. Better that than to wait 6 months for a 200 meg download ...... no??

Agree, so much! I used to dread "Patch Day" in the games I played. I look forward to Update Day for Guild Wars, and I think everyone else does, too. Even if we spring it on you a bit unexpectedly on a Friday evening.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mariena Feladon

I'm up for both, really. Guess I'm used to it. The good, and probably best, thing about the weekly updates is that they're VERY quick to address critical issues and other major problems (such as the botter problem in Seeker's Passage). The bad thing about it, is I guess, the expectation. You're getting used to the weekly updates, and when they're not updating weekly.. ooh. Angry mobs.

Good points. We try to address things quickly, it's true. And I had a feeling that when we stopped doing updates every single week, it might cause a little... I don't know, concern? Disappointment? But really, the decision to update or not update comes down to our feeling that we should update when we have an update of considerable worth. If you look at the last two or three updates (other than the little ones we have done for minor corrective measures) they have involved really major changes, and have been for improvement more than fixes, for the most part. Or if there have been fixes, they have resulted in improvements, if that makes sense. Anyway, that's the way we like to do things -- positively and proactively.

Tuna · Jul 23, 2005, 06:32 AM // 06:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaile Gray

The truth is, there just aren't enough hours in the day for us to attend to the things that we want to attend to, and grow the game in the direction that we want to see it grow.

You know, there was a whole thread (several pages worth, in fact) about how many people would like to know just what "direction [ANet] wants to see [GW] grow" Perhaps our caring PR rep can give us a lending hand?

Quote:

Sometimes, there's a lot of ruckus about something so minor you have to scratch your head. Sometimes, there's only a small voice saying "Hey, there's this problem..." and it genuinely deserves much more of a view than the "topic du jour" that doesn't amount to a hill of beans in the overall picture.

I don't know... I've seen very few topics that get more than 1 page worth and are 'minor issues.' Large topics tend to indicate controversey over a topic which in turn indicates that some (and probably sizable) percentage of the player base is unhappy with one feature or another. The small topics that deserve voice usually get a sea of /signed if people like the idea, which coincidently doesn't make them small anymore. Maybe you're looking in the wrong places.

Quote:

The essential thing is that we do hear from you -- comments, concerns, suggestions, input, reports... So keep 'em coming, and we'll share what we can, either in response or through improvements to the game, to which you can rightfully point and say "See that update? I helped with that."

I'm not going to say that nothing the community wants has been implemented, but a large portion of the stuff is still being brought up in our very own sardelac sanitarium over and over again. Saying you listen to the fan base and then never implementing ideas that obviously have support or saying they'll be seen 'very soon in future updates' tends to create problems.

Quote:

This is the first company I know of that is so studious about trying to outline every area in which updates or patches are made, and to call out the specifics of what is being altered. I've seen games that have been out a year that don't have a single "patch note" page.

I'm not sure what games you play, but pretty much everything I've played has extensive and specific patch notes. RTS games are usually perticularly good at this; if they change damage on archers for 12-17 to 13-18 it says exactly that. If ANet were to change the damage radius on crystal wave it would read "Damage radius on crystal wave increased/decreased" You wouldn't belive how much it helps to know that a value changed from one ambiguous value to another ambiguous value.

edit: 20plat says Gaile doesn't reply and address this post.

ShinJin Kahn · Jul 23, 2005, 07:21 AM // 07:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaile Gray

We post honestly about updates, but details are not provided for a wealth of reasons. It would be super if, instead of our seeing the glass has half empty, we all saw it as half full. This is the first company I know of that is so studious about trying to outline every area in which updates or patches are made, and to call out the specifics of what is being altered. I've seen games that have been out a year that don't have a single "patch note" page.

Well Blizzard are VERY good at detailing their patches and updates on pretty much every game they own. Even when they've patched 3 times in the space of a week they're very good at letting people know whats been updated or removed.

Maybe their dev teams alot bigger then Anets or they have more time, but seriously, how hard is it to write 3 or 4 lines explaining what exactly was changed?.

People feel more at ease when they understand whats going on.

Evan montegarde · Jul 23, 2005, 07:27 AM // 07:27

The only thing I dislike about Anet's update policy is that they give us a lack of information, like everyone else has said.

I mean, you could at least say "Closed chest running exploit from Seeker's Passage to prevent use of bots" instead of "closed exploit in seeker's passage".

Or even "Adjusted drop rate of barrel in Watchtower Coast in order to stop players from having an unfair advantage" instead of just doing it without telling us.

KuTeBaka · Jul 23, 2005, 07:31 AM // 07:31

well you see, if you tell people how the exploit worked, they might find a similar exploit on some other similar place.

Gaile Gray · Jul 23, 2005, 08:15 AM // 08:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tuna

Saying you listen to the fan base and then never implementing ideas that obviously have support or saying they'll be seen 'very soon in future updates' tends to create problems.

Woo, that's some not-so-careful wording, there.

Are you sure you want to say "Saying you listen to the fan base and then never implementing ideas that obviously have support..." Can you honestly look at the Update Notes and not see literally hundreds of responses to player requests, including, just to name a few, faction, the restoration of PvP XP, improvements to AI for Henchies, upgrades to the GUI, the addition of new and unique armour art, an expanded Friend's list... Well, I'm sorry if you fail to see the high level of responsiveness, and I hope that most players will remain patient as we get to the issues of concern, and the suggestions of worth, in due time.

Quote:

edit: 20plat says Gaile doesn't reply and address this post.

You lose.

Please donate the 20 plat to THX, who can use it for a site giveaway of some sort. Thanks for playing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by KuTeBaka

well you see, if you tell people how the exploit worked, they might find a similar exploit on some other similar place.

That is part of the concern, yes. I just don't see that major software company who makes operating systems saying "This is how they breached our security protocols" any more than I see the Secret Service talking about how a scary person almost got into the White House. There are some things best left undisclosed. I'll bring up the idea of more specific information, but I do feel that an awful lot is being disclosed here.

I once wrote an entire fansite section based on undisclosed changes to a very popular game. The patch notes didn't have 1/4 of what the company was doing, each and every time. The notes were, in fact, a joke. I can honestly say that I don't know of any change we've made to Guild Wars that hasn't been noted, at least in a general sense. And let me tell you, when we say "Updated Korean and European translations" I really don't want a line-by-line disclosure.

Haloknight9 · Jul 23, 2005, 08:25 AM // 08:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tuna

edit: 20plat says Gaile doesn't reply and address this post.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaile Gray

You lose.

OMG owned! Lol j/k. Sorry had to say it.

Edit: Actually im surprised that gaile posted after all that. Kudos. As for the company giving us detailed explanations on patch notes. Well... it would rock to have.. just so i know if a topic i have been discussing on or have been reading has been fixed, but hey...I can't demand it... I don't pay a monthly fee.

Tactical-Dillusions · Jul 23, 2005, 08:29 AM // 08:29

What's wrong with scary people in the white house? We have scary people in the house of commons all the time and even on the ledges of buckingham palace.

Anyway... back to the real world...i mean i'm off to play GW.

Divinitys Creature · Jul 23, 2005, 11:46 AM // 11:46

Im surprised these two updates generated so much interest. They happened in like the space of 5 minutes or something. I remember restarting for the new build and the five minutes later (I was a bit sleepy so it could have been longer) had to restart again.

Gaile, you have to let us know - were you controlling the shark?

Warskull · Jul 23, 2005, 12:50 PM // 12:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by ShinJin Kahn

Well Blizzard are VERY good at detailing their patches and updates on pretty much every game they own. Even when they've patched 3 times in the space of a week they're very good at letting people know whats been updated or removed.

Maybe their dev teams alot bigger then Anets or they have more time, but seriously, how hard is it to write 3 or 4 lines explaining what exactly was changed?.

People feel more at ease when they understand whats going on.

Blizzard details the game play changed, not the bugs. Also remember the Blizzard patching method is "The patch is coming soon! Please be patient it will be here soon!" then 2 years later Diablo 1.10 (I think that is the right version) is released and hell freezes over. The only flaw I can find with the Arena.net patching process is that the notes aren't easily accessable when they exist. Well that and the occasional game shatter bug that sneaks in, I'll attribute that to caffiene and exhaustion caused hallucinations though.

Da Outlaw · Jul 23, 2005, 01:38 PM // 13:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Warskull

Blizzard details the game play changed, not the bugs. Also remember the Blizzard patching method is "The patch is coming soon! Please be patient it will be here soon!" then 2 years later Diablo 1.10 (I think that is the right version) is released and hell freezes over. The only flaw I can find with the Arena.net patching process is that the notes aren't easily accessable when they exist. Well that and the occasional game shatter bug that sneaks in, I'll attribute that to caffiene and exhaustion caused hallucinations though.

I think he was referring more to WoW's update notes, which are fairly detailed, and explain pretty well any changes they make. WoW is updated pretty regularly now, so Blizzard is improving their image a lot recently.

Quote:

I just don't see that major software company who makes operating systems saying "This is how they breached our security protocols"

Actually, Microsoft and Mozilla (among others) both release security information all the time, in full detail of what was broke and how it was fixed. Please don't tell me Gaile that companies don't reveal security issues with their product, that is simply not true. But that's ok, you aren't probably a big techie like I am, so I'll forgive your mistake.

I still feel that giving us more feedback fo what you changed, why and how could be improved. I think we would all appreciate better update notes, which why the conspriacy theories have been flying all over the place. When you write "updated loot balance in these areas...." or "Closed exploit in PvP" we have no idea of what the real intentions are, and don't know how it effects us.

Btw, I'm looking forward to James letter to us next week, the more feedback we get from Anet, I think the happier the community is, and more confident we are that you are listening to us, and doing good to make this game even better. The Summer updates is gonna be great, the tournament will be fun, Observer mode...ok well, I'll never use it, but I'm sure it will be fun for to use during that torurnament. And hopefully we'll see some new quests stream in, to tide us over till chapter 2!

StandardAI · Jul 23, 2005, 02:54 PM // 14:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by TelMarine

i like how she responded by saying something but really didnt say much at all.

That's one of her great talents.

Andy_M · Jul 23, 2005, 02:56 PM // 14:56

I'd like to know what Anet are doing about (or what is causing) the terrible lag currently troubling the Oasis right now (European Server).

Tuna · Jul 23, 2005, 06:25 PM // 18:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaile Gray

Woo, that's some not-so-careful wording, there.

Are you sure you want to say "Saying you listen to the fan base and then never implementing ideas that obviously have support..." Can you honestly look at the Update Notes and not see literally hundreds of responses to player requests, including, just to name a few, faction, the restoration of PvP XP, improvements to AI for Henchies, upgrades to the GUI, the addition of new and unique armour art, an expanded Friend's list... Well, I'm sorry if you fail to see the high level of responsiveness, and I hope that most players will remain patient as we get to the issues of concern, and the suggestions of worth, in due time.You lose.

Its important to take quotes in complete context, as you notice the sentance before I had a disclamer saying that you have implemented some things. The second sentance pressess on the many things that the community wants and there is little official word of ever getting.

Quote:

Please donate the 20 plat to THX, who can use it for a site giveaway of some sort. Thanks for playing.

I really meant if you responed to each point (perticularly the first one), but sure, I'll donate anyway. Someone make a contest and I'll back the prizes.

Quote:

That is part of the concern, yes. I just don't see that major software company who makes operating systems saying "This is how they breached our security protocols" any more than I see the Secret Service talking about how a scary person almost got into the White House. There are some things best left undisclosed. I'll bring up the idea of more specific information, but I do feel that an awful lot is being disclosed here.

Thats not a parallel example. The majority of Guild War's fixes deal with game balances not security breaches. You're also absoutley right, we probably don't want to know about the korean translation system, but we would like to know about gameplay issues that severely affect us.